QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Fri Feb 07, 2020 6:01 am

but even if you could reinit and there is an option to switch to qts hero, you would still need a license key for it dontcha?

also wasn't there supposed to be a public open beta before an official stable release? how would that work exactly? do they give a temp key after when it expires you have to reinit or something?
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by JayZee123 » Thu Apr 09, 2020 2:22 am

Really looking forward to QNAP bringing ZFS to the masses with devices like the TS-453Be (8Gb Ram & a M.2 SSD Cache on PCIe) – that is a game changer :-0 for the non-enterprise NAS market. 8)
Smart way to make a little more on a license, glad QNAP are planning an outright fee not subscription! :)
Any word on when this may be available to try on TS-X5X (desktop) models?

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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Thu Apr 09, 2020 3:30 am

yeah the zfs license to add qts hero to certain models is a PERPETUAL license. other than that, based on the previous demo site, there is an inkling what the price might be like. and yes upon entering license, you can then reinit which will require formating your data (so before you do that, you should have a backup for your data so you can recover later) in order to switch from qts to qts hero.

i noticed in qts 4.4.2 changelog some mention of qts hero
- Users can now switch between QTS and QTS hero on the QTS hero NAS.
, and also in appcenter license center something to do with licenses working after reboot.
[Fixed Issues]
- Valid licenses are now automatically verified and recovered when the system reboots.
https://www.qnap.com/en-us/app_releasen ... enseCenter

4.4.2 got pulled recently, so i think it would be sometime probably a couple of months before we can expect qts hero.
viewtopic.php?f=142&t=154076

i thought qts hero beta was flagged for may or something? :'

qts hero is currently out for the qts hero rack models. are those being sold yet ?
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Tue May 05, 2020 10:07 am

QuTS - ZFS + QTS New OS from QNAP! Interview and Presentation - Exclusive
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVvtKz-ZB7M
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Trexx » Mon May 18, 2020 11:43 pm

Great article comparing ZFS to MDRAID.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/05 ... ne-winner/
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Tue May 19, 2020 4:52 am

oo nice an updated article, i'll check it out

ok so i checked it out. there are some interesting lessons to be learned from it , just an example
There's one burning question that needs to be answered after all this testing: Why are RAIDz reads so much slower than conventional RAID6 reads? With recordsize tuned appropriately for workload, RAIDz2 outperforms RAID6 on writes by as much as 20:1—which makes it that much more confusing why reads would be slower.

The answer is fairly simple, and it largely amounts to the flip side of the same coin. Remember the RAID hole? Conventional RAID6 is not only willing but effectively forced to pack multiple blocks/files into the same stripe, since it doesn't have a variable stripe width. In addition to opening up the potential for corruption due to partial stripe write, this subjects RAID6 arrays to punishing read-modify-write performance penalties when writing partial stripes.

RAIDz2, on the other hand, writes every block or file as a full stripe—even very small ones, by adjusting the width of the stripe. We captured the difference between the two topologies' 1MiB reads in the series of screenshots above.
Conclusions
If you're looking for raw, unbridled performance it's hard to argue against a properly-tuned pool of ZFS mirrors. RAID10 is the fastest per-disk conventional RAID topology in all metrics, and ZFS mirrors beat it resoundingly—sometimes by an order of magnitude—in every category tested, with the sole exception of 4KiB uncached reads.

ZFS' implementation of striped parity arrays—the RAIDz vdev type—are a bit more of a mixed bag. Although RAIDz2 decisively outperforms RAID6 on writes, it underperforms it significantly on 1MiB reads. If you're implementing a striped parity array, 1MiB is hopefully the blocksize you're targeting in the first place, since those arrays are particularly awful with small blocksizes.

When you add in the wealth of additional features ZFS offers—incredibly fast replication, per-dataset tuning, automatic data healing, high-performance inline compression, instant formatting, dynamic quota application, and more—we think it's difficult to justify any other choice for most general-purpose server applications.

ZFS still has more performance options to offer—we haven't yet covered the support vdev classes, LOG, CACHE, and SPECIAL. We'll cover those—and perhaps experiment with recordsize larger than 1MiB—in another fundamentals of storage chapter soon.


phoronix is also another good source of info for zfs. they usually from time to time do performance benchmarks

A Quick Look At EXT4 vs. ZFS Performance On Ubuntu 19.10 With An NVMe SSD
Written by Michael Larabel on 16 October 2019

At least as far as the out-of-the-box/default performance is concerned and from running tests off a conventional desktop and using a single NVMe solid-state drive, EXT4 was faster than ZFS on Ubuntu 19.10 overall. Granted, ZFS can be extensively tuned and is more catered towards server hardware than desktops, but will be interesting to see Canonical's ZFS play as we approach Ubuntu 20.04 LTS. More Ubuntu 19.10 ZFS benchmarks on more diverse hardware and with other Linux file-systems tested will be en route over the weeks ahead. Of course, for most users they are interested in ZFS for its features as opposed to raw performance.

Ubuntu 19.10 is slated for its official release tomorrow, 17 October.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... -zfs&num=3


Zstd Compression Under Review For OpenZFS
Written by Michael Larabel on 17 May 2020

The ZFS file-system has long offered transparent file-system compression via the likes of LZ4 and Gzip and while now Zstd compression is under review for OpenZFS and seeking testing from the community.

Zstandard compression is already supported by the likes of F2FS and Btrfs as a modern compression algorithm backed by Facebook and hugely popular across many different areas. One of the newest pull requests for OpenZFS/ZFSOnLinux would extend the ZFS compression capabilities to include this new option.

There is a pending pull request introducing Zstd compression for ZFS. It should offer compression ratios comparable to Gzip but with much greater performance. The code is under review and additional testing always helps for getting such big changes across the finish line. Hopefully this will get merged in time for the 1.0 milestone of OpenZFS.

https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page= ... ZFS-Review
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R » Tue May 19, 2020 7:53 pm

Trexx wrote:
Mon May 18, 2020 11:43 pm
Great article comparing ZFS to MDRAID.
https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2020/05 ... ne-winner/
And once again the focus is on random access only, where RAID 10 shine and parity-based schemes like RAIDz2 (RAID 6) perform worse. While very interesting for larger organizations with really busy NASes, it's not that useful for home and SMB users that have much more sequential workloads and that need large capacities with as little storage overhead as possible. QuTS Hero should of course attract more of the larger customers but I'm pretty sure that the majority of users will still be home and SMB.

Bob Zelin and his customers have largely the same requirements as home and SMB users but taken to the extreme, they need very much storage at a reasonable cost and they need very fast sequential performance. Therefore I think it will be far more interesting to read the evaluations and conclusions from Bob.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Trexx » Tue May 19, 2020 10:22 pm

Understand P3R. I agree this doesn’t cover all use cases. For things like Plex streaming, the media would be better hosted on raidz parity groups.

Since I am not real versed in ZFS it was interesting to find out more about how it works.

With the ability to tune the ZFS configuration at a “shared folder” level, it does allow the user to optimize their configuration to needs with proper planning.

As for Bob’s users, yes this will be a big blessing to them.

As for sequential vs random, on a poorly planned system multiple concurrent/different sequential streams ultimately devolve into 1 big random jumble in the end.

Just like anything, ZFS can be good when used/config’d properly or be bad when it isn’t.


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Model: TS-877-1600 FW: 4.4.3.x
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Data (HDD): [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar
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-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R » Wed May 20, 2020 12:04 am

Trexx wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 10:22 pm
As for Bob’s users, yes this will be a big blessing to them.
That is what the Qnap marketing tell us but I'm not so sure. In my experience with ZFS, it generally require faster hardware to perform the same as QTS, though I'm by far no ZFS tuning expert. :oops: The Hero-ready systems have all been enterprise or top-level SMB and it's not too hard to get great performance from that hardware filled with SSDs. It will be very interesting to see if Bob will be as enthusiastic about the performance as Qnap are when the requirements of his customers are added. Maybe he's even testing it by now? As for volume size, yes it will be a great improvement for them.
As for sequential vs random, on a poorly planned system multiple concurrent/different sequential streams ultimately devolve into 1 big random jumble in the end.
Of course, with many users the workload is always random but home/SMB users typically don't have many concurrent users/streams in my experience.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Trexx » Wed May 20, 2020 2:38 am

I think the concurrent workload is different from concurrent usage.

Think about autopilot Sonarr, Radarr, Plex DVR, NZBGet, etc. all running in the background all without necessarily real-time/continuous user interaction.

I would agree concurrent user is generally not usually real high.

As for running it on the RIGHT QNAP models, levels of hardware, etc... yeah that is going to get interesting.

Even the “how do I backup/restore my apps/settings/etc.” will be ugly.

Try to backup
Convert to ZFS on weaker HW
Restore/re-install
Unhappy with perf
Revert back to QTS
Restore/reinstall again

Post on forum multiple times along the way :)


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Paul

Model: TS-877-1600 FW: 4.4.3.x
QTS (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x 1TB WD Blue m.2's
Data (HDD): [RAID-5] 6 x 3TB HGST DeskStar
VMs (SSD): [RAID-1] 2 x 500GB Evo 860
Ext. (HDD): TR-004 [Raid-5] 4 x 4TB HGST Ultastor
RAM: Kingston HyperX Fury 64GB DDR4-2666
GPU: EVGA GTX 1060 6GB
UPS: CP AVR1350

Model:TVS-673 32GB FW: 4.4.3.x Test/Backup Box
Model:TS-228a FW: 4.4.3.x Test/Backup Box
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
NAS RAID Rebuild Times | Live QTS Videos | | QNAP NAS Guide | Information needed when you ask for HELP | QNAP Links, Tutorials, etc.
2018 Plex NAS Compatibility Guide | QNAP Plex FAQ | Moogle's QNAP Faq

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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R » Wed May 20, 2020 3:54 am

Trexx wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 2:38 am
Think about autopilot Sonarr, Radarr, Plex DVR, NZBGet, etc. all running in the background all without necessarily real-time/continuous user interaction.
Yes there are several services installed but for most users, they're not very taxing or always actively in use. Most users are still limited by an internet connection with (relatively) low bandwidth so for them it will be that the main sequential loads are interrupted by occasional short bursts of random access.

The above is nowhere close to having 8 concurrent streams, each pushing as much as possible.
Even the “how do I backup/restore my apps/settings/etc.” will be ugly.
Indeed.

And then the shock for some when they realize that RAID migration and adding disks to a RAID, that they've taken for granted since many years, doesn't work anymore.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Wed May 20, 2020 5:30 am

you can't create single static volumes as well if i recall right? i can't find where they mentioned this, must be in one of their slide presentations.
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[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
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[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R » Wed May 20, 2020 6:47 am

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 5:30 am
you can't create single static volumes as well if i recall right?
No. Why would you want to return to the stone age? :wink:

ZFS is sort of like md with LVM and file system integrated together. It's a package, take it or leave it.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Wed May 20, 2020 7:02 am

so i guess you won't be using quts hero i take it?

i understand it's not perfect, but it has checksum self healing, which is what i need. oo wait, ext4 linux doesn't have that right :} ?

will have to try it and see how it's like :/ see if i can live with some of the downsides of it as you pointed out, that's the first thing i'll be checking. yes adding new hdds to pool have to start from scratch, but i won't be doing that often, and i already practise backups. Might be an issue for those that don't or, they can't afford the downtime to resetup from scratch :S
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[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R » Wed May 20, 2020 7:36 am

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 7:02 am
so i guess you won't be using quts hero i take it?
Why do you guess that?

I manage ZFS systems on an almost daily basis and I have the hardware to run it, so why wouldn't I want to use it? I certainly want to at least test it.

Different from the marketing message though, I want users to also be aware of the limitations and disadvantages in advance so that they can make an informed decision. I also haven't noticed the stellar performance advantage marketing tell us about. I think that a lot of users with smaller NASes would be better off sticking to QTS. At least for a while until the early adopters have taken the hit and the real hardware requirements are common knowledge. I can't imagine that anybody with 4 GB RAM will be a happy user.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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