QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

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delphinus
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by delphinus » Wed Nov 13, 2019 6:10 pm

Is it "QTS Hero" or "QTS hero"? I've seen both.

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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Sat Nov 16, 2019 3:21 pm

OpenZFS Basics by Matt Ahrens and George Wilson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MsY-BafQgj4

openzfs 2.0 in 2020?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e8emXau64U

History of ZFS
The Z File System (ZFS) was created by Matthew Ahrens and Jeff Bonwick in 2001. ZFS was designed to be a next generation file system for Sun Microsystems’ OpenSolaris. In 2008, ZFS was ported to FreeBSD. The same year a project was started to port ZFS to Linux. However, since ZFS is licensed under the Common Development and Distribution License, which is incompatible with the GNU General Public License, it cannot be included in the Linux kernel. To get around this problem, most Linux distros offer methods to install ZFS.

Shortly after Oracle purchased Sun Microsystems, OpenSolaris became close-source. All further development of ZFS became closed source, as well. Many of the developers of ZFS where unhappy about this turn of events. Two-thirds of the core ZFS devlopers, including Ahrens and Bonwick, left Oracle due to this decision. They joined other companies and created the OpenZFS project in September of 2013. The project has spearheaded the open-source development of ZFS.

Let’s go back to the license issue mentioned above. Since the OpenZFS project is separate from Oracle, some probably wonder why they don’t change the license to something that is compatible with the GPL so it can be included in the Linux kernel. According to the OpenZFS website, changing the license would involve contacting anyone who contributed code to the current OpenZFS implementation (including the initial, common ZFS code till OpenSolaris) and get their permission to change the license. Since this job is near impossible (because some contributors may be dead or hard to find), they have decided to keep the license they have.
https://itsfoss.com/what-is-zfs/

Yes, ZFS is really as good as people say it is.

After enjoying nearly a decade of refinement by a growing group of developers around the world, ZFS became the property of database vendor Oracle, which ceased public development of both ZFS and OpenSolaris in 2010. Disappointed but undeterred, a group of OpenSolaris users and developers forked the last public release of OpenSolaris as the Illumos project. While most if not all users of Illumos and its derivatives are ZFS users, the majority of ZFS users are not Illumos users, thanks significantly in part to FreeNAS which uses the FreeBSD operating system. This imbalance plus several successful ZFS Day events led ZFS co-founder Matt Ahrens and a group of ZFS developers to announce the OpenZFS project, which would remain a part of the Illumos code base but would be free to coordinate development efforts and events around their favorite file system. ZFS Day has grown into the two-day OpenZFS Developer Summit and is stronger than ever, a testament to the passion and dedication of the OpenZFS community.

Oracle has steadily continued to develop its own proprietary branch of ZFS and Matt Ahrens points out that over 50% of the original OpenSolaris ZFS code has been replaced in OpenZFS with community contributions. This means that there are, sadly, two politically and technologically-incompatible branches of “ZFS” but fortunately, OpenZFS is orders of magnitude more popular thanks to its open nature. The two projects should be referred to as “Oracle ZFS” and “OpenZFS” to distinguish them as development efforts, but the user still types the ‘zfs’ command, which on FreeBSD relies on the ‘zfs.ko’ kernel module. My impression is that the terms of the CDDL license under which the OpenZFS branch of ZFS is published protects its users from any patent and trademark risks. Hopefully, this all helps you distinguish the OpenZFS project from the ZFS technology.


June, 2019 Update

As readers have correctly pointed out, the role of ZFS on Linux a.k.a. “ZoL” is a hot topic. OpenZFS has been experiencing rapid development on Illumos, FreeBSD, and GNU/Linux in recent years which has led to feature inconsistency and potential feature incompatibility. Recognizing what a disservice OpenZFS fragmentation would be to the community, the OpenZFS Project leadership is discussing how to encourage OpenZFS feature compatibility through various mechanisms such as a month and year that represent a specific set of OpenZFS features that can be expected on multiple platforms. In parallel, iXsystems is upstreaming native FreeBSD support into the ZoL code base to make the ZoL code base truly platform-agnostic. This will help the OpenZFS project reach its goal of unification on a common upstream OpenZFS source code repo for all supported platforms. This is significant, considering that OpenZFS is undergoing testing on NetBSD and Windows and this work will allow FreeNAS 12 to deliver the latest OpenZFS features. Please help test the new OpenZFS kernel module and userland tools on FreeBSD to accelerate this unification!
https://www.ixsystems.com/blog/zfs-vs-openzfs/



QNAP - Are there license issues with ZFS?
The QES OS is based on FreeBSD and does not use a Linux kernel. FreeBSD follows the BSD license and the Common Development and Distribution License (CDDL) on which ZFS is based. Both licenses are compatible and can be used together legally without creating any GPL or CDDL license conflicts.
https://www.qnap.com/en/how-to/faq/arti ... -with-zfs/


but qts hero will be based on linux. will there be another article explaining how they got around this issue for that? i hope this is not a case of curiosity killed the cat situation :shock: i'm just genuinely curious about this is all, no other motives :'


perhaps this answers that
ZFS on Linux is distributed as a kennel module, just like NVidia's closed source graphics module. It cannot be included in the main kernel code repository due to the licensing issue, so the ZFS-on-Linux guys are always playing catch-up to work around changes in the kernel. For a distro like Ubuntu, this isn't so bad as the kernel is always a few releases behind already. github.com/zfsonlinux/zfs/wiki/FAQ#licensing – bobpaul
https://opensource.stackexchange.com/qu ... hey-expire
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by occamsrazor » Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:01 pm

Some kind of livestream about QTS Hero tomorrow...

https://live.qnap.com/en/video/show/4866
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:47 pm

occamsrazor wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 12:01 pm
...
thx for the heads up, i didn't notice.

qts hero... unveiled...

imminent released announcement perhaps? :'

cauz if we think about it, there was already a qts hero youtube explaining what it is. so what else new would they bother releasing more new content. to me it sounds like they will give a solid release date perhaps? and probably soon is my guess.

or perhaps... they are talking about qts hero specific models? because i thought some of their zfs focused models would have ecc ram? are they going to introduce those i wonder :'

hopefully the pricing is reasonable....
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by occamsrazor » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:23 pm

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:
Mon Nov 18, 2019 4:47 pm

or perhaps... they are talking about qts hero specific models? because i thought some of their zfs focused models would have ecc ram? are they going to introduce those i wonder :'
@Moogle Stiltzkin - the opening screen for the upcoming Youtube webinar lists some rackmount models that sound new and have a TS-hXXXX model number.....
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:33 pm

occamsrazor wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 4:23 pm
...
ah thx. i noticed the non english youtube aired, but i'm waiting for the english one which is less than an hour from now :} to understand it better.
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by occamsrazor » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:55 pm

Hmmm... well I didn't learn anything new from that live demo, except that there are some new high-end Hero-specific rackmount models that look great but which I will never be able to afford.
Unfortunately the QNAP people in it did not answer any of the questions in the live chat.......
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:58 pm

no release dated or price mentioned afaik.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsQw16ZNQzo


but apparenly single static volume cannot be used. so at minimum you need a pair of hdd/ssd running in raid1. also no live expansion, i think they mean once you add a x amount of hdd to a pool, u cant change that without starting from scratch again?

I probably can live with that.


uh... did i see the pricing on the qnap store for ecc ram correctly? :shock:
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by occamsrazor » Tue Nov 19, 2019 6:05 pm

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:58 pm
no release dated or price mentioned afaik.
No, no mention of that....
Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:
Tue Nov 19, 2019 5:58 pm
uh... did i see the pricing on the qnap store for ecc ram correctly? :shock:
I think you did. Though as an Apple user I'm used to price-gouging on RAM. At least on the QNAPs you have the option to add yourself, although even with the base RAM on those hXXX models you're presumably paying a fair bit for that RAM, based on QNAP pricing of current models.

Was kind of disappointing they didn't talk at all about usage of QTS Hero on existing systems..... They have a big existing userbase and for many this is an important development. Not everyone is going to rush out to buy the hXXX models.....
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by addwal » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:14 am

The Qmanager iOS app has been updated to support QTS hero
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Trexx » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:31 am

addwal wrote:
Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:14 am
The Qmanager iOS app has been updated to support QTS hero
Woohoo :). The livestream was interesting. A couple good slides regarding what you can/can't do compared to QTS and a potential migration approach. Would have liked to see some information regarding the "legacy" platforms as well, but again ZFS is more targeted for the higher-end user, not most home users.
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:01 pm

new qts hero video Q&A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lA0xE9jMa2k

ETA @1:05

"sketchy, but roughly around end of this year" :-0


can someone clarify what they meant by this
2, Will QTS Hero utilize any fluid RAID system, where users can take advantage of mixed drive arrays?
do they mean raids with mixed hard drive capacities? or do they mean multiple raids in the same nas e.g.

i currently use 4x4tb raid5, and a 2x250gb ssd raid1

So which were they referring to o-O: ? i'm guessing not the later since their own instructions implies you can set it up with 2 raids on the same nas
Tiered storage configuration for a QTS hero NAS

Follow these steps to acquire optimal storage efficiency and performance for QTS hero.

Step 1: System Drive
The first Storage Pool you create will be the system drive. Create an SSD RAID with at least two SSDs for the system drive. You must allocate at least two SSDs for create the RAID.

Step 2: Read/Write Cache
Use more SSDs for a read/write cache. You can also install QM2 expansion cards to add M.2 SSDs for expanding cache space.

Step 3: Data Storage
Allocate HDDs/SSDs to create a RAID for storing files and application data. If needed, you can configure an all-flash configuration for optimal performance.
https://www.qnap.com/qts-hero/en/


but what they clearly mentioned in a previous video, was that you cannot do single static volumes on qts hero.


@8:35 they mention about the ram requirements e.g. if you need x amount of ram for dedupe, you also need to take into account ram needed to run apps, vms and etc IN ADDITION to that.
Last edited by Moogle Stiltzkin on Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by antik » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:10 pm

New EN web page is available: https://www.qnap.com/qts-hero/en/

By the way... "Special edition QNAP NAS with QTS hero preinstalled are now available!" (applies for the time being to Taiwan) and "The QTS hero license program will be available from Q2 2020" 8)
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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:14 pm

antik wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:10 pm
The QTS hero license program will be available from Q2 2020" 8)
but the youtube said by end of this year. so maybe they were referring to a beta. then the official release is q2 :'
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[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
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[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

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Re: QTS Hero... ZFS? What? When?

Post by P3R » Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:37 pm

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 4:01 pm
do they mean raids with mixed hard drive capacities?
Yes that and being able to take advantage of the additional capacity on the larger disks. Like several competitors do with their proprietary RAID solutions. It's not a feature of ZFS either so it won't be in QTS Hero.

With both LVM (storage pools) and ZFS you can combine 2*2 TB RAID 1 and 2*4 TB RAID 1 in the same volume though.
...or do they mean multiple raids in the same nas e.g.

i currently use 4x4tb raid5, and a 2x250gb ssd raid1
That's of course always possible in any system.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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