Western Digital Red SMR

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Lancing
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Western Digital Red SMR

Post by Lancing » Fri May 29, 2020 8:57 am

Sorry to just drop this but I could not find the information anywhere.

Is there an official statement from QNAP regarding using Western Digital Red SMR drives in QNAP enclosures?

I am planning to give Western Digital a call tomorrow and see if there is any option to exchange my Red SMR drives for CMR.

Since there is a US class action lawsuit starting up I am hoping they might be a little more cooperative now, but having an official statement from QNAP about the use of Red SMR drives would definitely help make my point on the phone.

Thanks!

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blackbeast
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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by blackbeast » Fri May 29, 2020 9:10 am

Lancing wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 8:57 am
see if there is any option to exchange my Red SMR drives for CMR
That assumes they have any, which likely they won't. All CMR 2-6Tb WD Reds were made obsolete some many months ago and have been disappearing from outlets more recently as old stock is used up.
Lancing wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 8:57 am
Is there an official statement from QNAP regarding using Western Digital Red SMR drives in QNAP enclosures?
On the compatibility site for QNAP, the information is already there. Generally the text for WD SMR drives are:

Code: Select all

When using SMR-based hard drives, NAS performance may be impacted if the drives run out of cache space. If your NAS operates in a data-intensive environment, we recommend using data center hard drives
NAS: TS-653B | FW 4.4.3.1354 | 6 x 6Tb WD60-ERFX (24TB RAID6) | 8Gb RAM
NAS: TS-453Be | FW 4.4.3.1354 | 4 x 8Tb WD80-EFRX (24TB RAID5) | 4Gb RAM
NAS: TS-559 Pro | FW 4.2.6 | 5 x 3Tb WD30-EFRX (12TB RAID5) | 1Gb RAM

Lancing
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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by Lancing » Fri May 29, 2020 9:24 am

Okay, will mention that to them. I am not overly optimistic but figure its worth a shot.

Curious to see what options they offer if any.

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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Fri May 29, 2020 9:53 am

Lancing wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 8:57 am
Sorry to just drop this but I could not find the information anywhere.

Is there an official statement from QNAP regarding using Western Digital Red SMR drives in QNAP enclosures?

I am planning to give Western Digital a call tomorrow and see if there is any option to exchange my Red SMR drives for CMR.

Since there is a US class action lawsuit starting up I am hoping they might be a little more cooperative now, but having an official statement from QNAP about the use of Red SMR drives would definitely help make my point on the phone.

Thanks!
:' ??

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=154346


No i don't know what qnap stance is on this subject. But you would go to the product page and check compatibility for HDDs and there should be notes mentioned.

But i can't imagine them recommended WD NAS SMRs for QUTS hero (zfs linux) though
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hdJTwaTl8I


For now i recommend Seagate ironwolf. Or, you can opt for Toshiba N300. Or, there may be other alternatives :' (just make sure they are PMR, good MBTF, and are reliable aka not known for high failure rates like the infamous deathstars :shock: other usual considerations though HIGH vs low RPM, performance benchmarks etc... )
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by P3R » Sat May 30, 2020 11:36 pm

Lancing wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:24 am
Okay, will mention that to them. I am not overly optimistic but figure its worth a shot.
I know of a user that said he didn't want to accept the older EFRX WD Reds as replacement as that would be a step down because of the much smaller cache. He was offered WD Red Pros instead and even got advance replacement on them! :D

Good luck!
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

Lancing
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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by Lancing » Sun May 31, 2020 11:02 am

P3R wrote:
Sat May 30, 2020 11:36 pm
Lancing wrote:
Fri May 29, 2020 9:24 am
Okay, will mention that to them. I am not overly optimistic but figure its worth a shot.
I know of a user that said he didn't want to accept the older EFRX WD Reds as replacement as that would be a step down because of the much smaller cache. He was offered WD Red Pros instead and even got advance replacement on them! :D

Good luck!
Yah, pretty big update for this one.

I'm located in Canada and contacted Western Digital. They offered to replace the WD Red SMR drive with a WD Red PMR drive, which I accepted.

Later I got the RMA information emailed to me and noticed they were asking me to pay for shipping. So I contacted them again and told them I was not paying for shipping as this was not a repair related request but a replacement due to false advertising and an unsuitable product. I informed them my only other recourse was to go through the Canadian class action lawsuit which has started. They bumped me up to a higher tier of support and informed me they would get back to me this Wednesday with a solution.

For those I need the links, there are now two class action lawsuits related to these drives.

Canadian:
https://ca.topclassactions.com/lawsuit- ... sc-drives/

US:
https://www.hattislaw.com/cases/investi ... d-red-nas/

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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Sun May 31, 2020 11:32 am

Lancing wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:02 am
Yah, pretty big update for this one.

I'm located in Canada and contacted Western Digital. They offered to replace the WD Red SMR drive with a WD Red PMR drive, which I accepted.

Later I got the RMA information emailed to me and noticed they were asking me to pay for shipping. So I contacted them again and told them I was not paying for shipping as this was not a repair related request but a replacement due to false advertising and an unsuitable product. I informed them my only other recourse was to go through the Canadian class action lawsuit which has started. They bumped me up to a higher tier of support and informed me they would get back to me this Wednesday with a solution.

For those I need the links, there are now two class action lawsuits related to these drives.

Canadian:
https://ca.topclassactions.com/lawsuit- ... sc-drives/

US:
https://www.hattislaw.com/cases/investi ... d-red-nas/
to my understanding, under normal circumstances of RMA, you have to pay for shipping to them (but you don't pay for them to send the replacements to you) is the norm for RMA.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_YvJ9ZHi9Ug

In this guy's example, he paid 10 Euro for the shipping for 1 hdd.


Just wondering though
WD Red PMR drive
What PMR exactly are you getting? are they trying to give you the crappier phased out EFRX (it may not be SMR, but it was less cache) ? or will you be getting the WD Red Pro ???

because the choice is the phased out EFRX with crappier performance, or the WD Red Pro. So if you were affected by EFAX purchase, make sure you get the WD Red Pro as replacement.

This "WD RED PMR drive" isn't specific enough i worry :S you may end up with a EFRX if you aren't careful. Make sure they are very clear and precise on what your replacement will be, and avoid general terms like these.
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

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Lancing
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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by Lancing » Sun May 31, 2020 12:54 pm

Normally you do pay for shipping to them on an RMA with WD. But in this case the exchanges are not related to repairs or individually defective drives.

The entire WD Red SMR product line is a frankly defective when used in a NAS or RAID and was falsely advertised. As recently as March-April Western Digital was claiming these drives were not SMR, they didn't admit it and identify the drives until April 22nd.

I am not willing to spend anymore money on this drive. They either replace it at their cost or I'll go through the Canadian class action lawsuit, the threat of which seems have gotten me bumped up to senior level customer support. So we'll see how this all goes down.

In terms of what they'll ship me, I honestly don't know yet. I expect an equivlant PMR NAS drive at their cost absolute minimum, EFRX is fine. Though if they offer me a Pro I'll obviously take it.

The SMR drives have way way too many problems:
https://www.servethehome.com/wd-red-smr ... d-red-smr/
Unfortunately, while the SMR WD Red performed respectably in the previous benchmarks, the RAIDZ resilver test proved to be another matter entirely. While all three CMR drives comfortably completed the resilver in under 17 hours, the SMR drive took nearly 230 hours to perform an identical task.

According to iXsystems, WD Red SMR drives running firmware revision 82.00A82 can cause the drive to enter a failed state during heavy loads using ZFS. This is the revision of firmware that came on both of our drives. We did not experience this failure mode, and instead only received extremely poor performance. Perhaps that was because we were testing the use of the drive as a replacement rather than building an entire array of SMR drives. In either case, we suggest not using them.

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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Sun May 31, 2020 1:15 pm

Lancing wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:54 pm
...
i agree, what WD did was disgusting. I also bought a seagate ironwolf 2 x 4tb recently as a way of protest (i'll probly still buy wd if it's a good product for a good deal, but until then fuk em :mrgreen: )

but all you're haggling for is just the shipping fee 10 euro as a rough estimate to send it back to them (how many hdds are you rmaing for exactly? :' i'm just assuming 1 hdd? )

at best try for barest minimum
- make sure you are getting wd pro for replacement (DO NOT ACCEPT EFRX EOL for your replacement. has less cache !!! and performance)
- advance replacement (i assume this means they send you the hdds in advance first, before you send them the old hdds back for RMA). If you can't haggle for this, then worse you got to send your hdds first then wait a couple of weeks before you get the replacement :( that is a lot of downtime....


What is the difference between standard RMA and advanced RMA?
If I remember correctly... the difference b/w regular RMA and Advanced RMA is that in regular RMA they only ship the product only after receiving the drive from you and in advanced they'll will ship the product before receiving the defective one...

Defective is defective you don't have to format it to return it.

Make sure the you read the RMA description, it should be listed on WD website on the RMA procedure somewhere.
https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads ... a.2684196/


If the shipping fee is still not much, maybe just count losses and move on. might be more trouble than it's worth (10 euro ish?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5LLVwn3_ek


but if you know other people are getting their shipping costs for sending back to them covered by WD for this SMR replacement incident, then definitely claim for that :)
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


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Lancing
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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by Lancing » Sun May 31, 2020 1:47 pm

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:15 pm
Lancing wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 12:54 pm
...
i agree, what WD did was disgusting. I also bought a seagate ironwolf 2 x 4tb recently as a way of protest (i'll probly still buy wd if it's a good product for a good deal, but until then fuk em :mrgreen: )

but all you're haggling for is just the shipping fee 10 euro as a rough estimate to send it back to them (how many hdds are you rmaing for exactly? :' i'm just assuming 1 hdd? )

at best try for barest minimum
- make sure you are getting wd pro for replacement (DO NOT ACCEPT EFRX EOL for your replacement. has less cache !!! and performance)
- advance replacement (i assume this means they send you the hdds in advance first, before you send them the old hdds back for RMA). If you can't haggle for this, then worse you got to send your hdds first then wait a couple of weeks before you get the replacement :( that is a lot of downtime....


What is the difference between standard RMA and advanced RMA?
If I remember correctly... the difference b/w regular RMA and Advanced RMA is that in regular RMA they only ship the product only after receiving the drive from you and in advanced they'll will ship the product before receiving the defective one...

Defective is defective you don't have to format it to return it.

Make sure the you read the RMA description, it should be listed on WD website on the RMA procedure somewhere.
https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads ... a.2684196/


If the shipping fee is still not much, maybe just count losses and move on. might be more trouble than it's worth (10 euro ish?)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5LLVwn3_ek


but if you know other people are getting their shipping costs for sending back to them covered by WD for this SMR replacement incident, then definitely claim for that :)
Its not haggling, its a direct threat. I am not covering this cost of this mess for them. They did this, intentionally.

They can replace the drive at their cost or deal with the problem in a court room with a multi-million dollar settlement for all affected consumers, either way its going to cost them and I honestly don't care which option they choose right now.

If it comes down to it I'll join in the lawsuit and just replace the drive with an Ironwolf later if I need to. Its just one drive, I have three older CMR Red's which are fine, 1 SMR Red (replaced an older CMR Red and gave me no end of grief during the rebuild) and 3 Ironwolf's right now.

The older EFRX CMR drives are still better then the new SMR drives. The SMR drives absolutely fall apart under sustain writes and their performance degrades to complete garbage when they are past 80% capacity.

I don't know if they'll do advanced or not at this point. I can temporary transfer the data off the QNAP NAS I have over to my server which has its own RAID if I need to though.

Nah, if it comes to that I'd rather they pay. Its costs me absolutely nothing to sign-up for the lawsuit. It'll take 20 minutes of my time and I'll just get a cheque mailed to me in 2-3 years.They are absolutely not just walking away from this. They either make it right or pay for it in the settlement.

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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by P3R » Mon Jun 01, 2020 12:47 am

Moogle Stiltzkin wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 11:32 am
What PMR exactly are you getting? are they trying to give you the crappier phased out EFRX (it may not be SMR, but it was less cache) ? or will you be getting the WD Red Pro ???
Don't refer to WD Red EFRX as being "crappier" and having "crappier" performance.

It's been the best selling and most popular NAS drive line on the planet for the last 8 years now. They're obviously not the fastest disk to be found but they're better than the newer SMRs despite the cache being smaller and if buying WD Red in the first place, the first priority probably wasn't maximum performance (if it was, they didn't do much pre-purchase research). There are many users that want WD Red because they are low power, are the most silent disks on the market, run very cool and have a good reputation (probably even a little better than they deserve but that's another story) so they're excellent in many home applications. It's great that at least one user (I only know of one) have been offered WD Red Pros but I fully understand users that settle for or even prefer EFRX because it's more appropriate for their home usage application.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by P3R » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:05 am

Lancing wrote:
Sun May 31, 2020 1:47 pm
I am not covering this cost of this mess for them. They did this, intentionally.
I agree, I wouldn't pay a cent. It's not about the money, it's the principle. They caused you enough trouble by selling you an inappropriate product for the intended usage and they should only be very happy and grateful if you're willing to let them off the hook instead of joining the class-action.
RAID have never ever been a replacement for backups. Without backups on a different system (preferably placed at another site), you will eventually lose data!

A non-RAID configuration (including RAID 0, which isn't really RAID) with a backup on a separate media protects your data far better than any RAID-volume without backup.

All data storage consists of both the primary storage and the backups. It's your money and your data, spend the storage budget wisely or pay with your data!

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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by jacobite1 » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:06 am

Just to chime in here,

I bet the EFAX (SMR) drives have larger caches to hide their comparatively worse random write performance, specifically with smaller files, so I don't think a 64MB cached EFRX drive would constitute a 'downgrade' as such.
TVS-872XT-i5-16GB with 6*ST12000VNZ008 in RAID 6.
Backed up to a stack of a half dozen 'cold' external 12TB and 8TB HDDs - please back up your data, RAID is not the same as a backup!

Formerly TVS-463 with 4*WD60EFRX in RAID5, planning to reuse as a backup destination once the EFRXs are freed up.

Protected by an APC SMT750VA UPS - protect your NASes folks!

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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by Moogle Stiltzkin » Mon Jun 01, 2020 2:09 am

i never suggested ever getting smr in the first place :S

i said get the wd pro as replacement instead of efrx. the only other alternative is the efax smr which is a no go. what is wrong with that suggestion? :)

i will however conceed on the point that there are still merits to lower vs high rpm hdds.

and as for cache i found this

https://www.quora.com/Is-a-256mb-cache- ... -cache-HDD


efax might be okay depending
WD80EFAX Red 8TB CMR 3.5inch
WD100EFAX Red 10TB CMR 3.5inch
WD101EFAX Red 10TB CMR 3.5inch
WD120EFAX Red 12TB CMR 3.5inch
but not these. so when i was refering not efax, i was refering to this batch of capacities. ask for the wd pro equivalents instead for replacements
WD20EFAX Red 2TB SMR 3.5inch
WD30EFAX Red 3TB SMR 3.5inch
WD40EFAX Red 4TB SMR 3.5inch
WD60EFAX Red 6TB SMR 3.5inch
WD2002FFSX Red Pro 2TB CMR 3.5inch
WD4003FFBX Red Pro 4TB CMR 3.5inch
WD6003FFBX Red Pro 6TB CMR 3.5inch
https://nascompares.com/answer/how-to-t ... d-compare/
The Red Pro family is designed to address the needs of those using storage systems up to 16 bays, ideal for SMBs and remote/branch offices that rely on NAS storage. Red Pro drives differentiate form the Red line with faster 7K spindle speed, extended thermal burn-in testing, hardware-based vibration compensation and a longer warranty.
i doubt you get a replacement warranty to the same as the pros?


they may not offer pro replacements for 8tb or more, but i don't see the harm in asking :mrgreen:
NAS
[Main Server] QNAP TS-877 w. 4tb [ 3x HGST Deskstar NAS (HDN724040ALE640) & 1x WD RED NAS ] EXT4 Raid5 & 2 x m.2 SATA Samsung 850 Evo raid1 +16gb ddr4 Crucial+ QWA-AC2600 wireless+QXP PCIE
[Backup] QNAP TS-653A w. 5x 2TB Samsung F3 (HD203WI) EXT4 Raid5
[Backup] QNAP TL-D400S 2x 4TB WD Red Nas (WD40EFRX) single disks.
[^] QNAP TS-659 Pro II
[^] QNAP TS-509 Pro w. 4x 1TB WD RE3 (WD1002FBYS) EXT4 Raid5
[^] QNAP TS-228
[^] QNAP TS-128
[Mobile NAS] TBS-453DX w. 2x Crucial MX500 500gb EXT4 raid1

Network
Asus AC68U Router|100dl/50ul MBPS FTTH Internet | Win10, WC PC-Intel i7 920 Ivy bridge desktop (1x 512gb Samsung 850 Pro SSD + 1x 4tb HGST Ultrastar 7K4000)


Guides & articles
[Review] Moogle's QNAP experience
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Re: Western Digital Red SMR

Post by kherr4377 » Fri Jun 26, 2020 3:08 am

SMR shows it's ugly face big time when doing rebuilds. 2 notable guys on YouTube did a test with 4 X 4TB (Reds) R5 (ZFS) setup. When an SMR was used the rebuild went from 17 hrs with CMR to 9.5 days with SMR. Astonished they redid the test with a differently sourced drives and had another individual test it with similar results. When they asked WD for comment ...... they didn't get a reply. They have video of an HGST (WD) engineer giving a talk about this a few years ago ... so WD knew.

I no longer buy ANYTHING WD ......... At least Seagate doesn't use SMR on NAS intended products ........

JUST SAY NO .....
Production :
TVS-673 4.3.4 0387
4 X 3TB WD RED : 1 X 4TB HGST DESKSTAR R5
32GB
LAN-10G1SR-D, FiberHal for Cisco SFP-10G-SR
NETGEAR ProSAFE SS3300-28X

Backup :
TS-469L 4.3.4 0387
4 X 3TB WD RED R5
3GB
Located detached garage .. cheap offsite solution ...

2nd TS-469L awaiting drives and reassignment for front-line duty .......

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